Oh Mary

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nickpeat
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Oh Mary

Postby nickpeat » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:20 am

Good morning, Firstly I just want to say what an excellent album K 2.0 is. The only thing that spoils it is the song Oh Mary. The music is excellent as always but the lyrics? Why did Kula Shaker have to put the boot in on Christianity? I know Crispian in particular is into Hinduism but why have a go at another religion? Sadly I have to skip this track which is a real shame.
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2-J
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 2-J » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:09 am

Hi nickpeat

Funnily enough I was going to post a topic about 'Oh Mary' the other day. And for similar reasons to you. The reason I didn't was because I listened to the song several more times and thought carefully about the lyrics (I'll explain below).

The reason I was going to post initially was because I was wondering if it was suggesting that Mary, the mother of Jesus (the Virgin Mary) got pregnant outside of marriage and lied about the matter - and mroe than that, actually... suggesting she had loose morals / made hedonistic lifestyle choices (girls gone wild, dancing), which resulted in the pregnancy. Of course, this isn't an original suggestion, it's been around as long as Christianity ( first recorded by Celsus in the 2nd century http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/celsus3.html )

Anyway since then I've been listening to it more and I think it's possible - not saying it's what Crispian intended but it's possible - that the negative suggestions in the song could be things said by the accusers of Mary, people saying negative things about Mary - her accusers - rather than by an omniscient narrator. Whether Mary conceived miraculously a virgin or not, if she got pregnant in that day and age outside of marriage and stating that it was a miracle, people would have gossiped about her / talked about her, saying those things that you hear in the song. Try listening to it like that and see if it works for you?

On this interpretation, that the negative things suggested are the words of accusers and gossipers rather than an omniscient narrator, the last verse stands out from the rest though. So I need to put some more thought into that (it doesn't fit that pattern, could it be something we would be supposed to take more generally).

Also: If we go back to the original interpretation, that the words are those of an omniscient narrator suggesting that Mary did get pregnant by living a hedonistic lifestyle, I think it's still sympathetic to Mary, particularly in light of the last verse. But of course in that case, the song does deny the Virgin Birth so if that is a problem for you full stop (even if Crispian is sympathetic to Mary) then you still won't get on with the song.

Finally, as far as I know Crispian follows the Krishna consciousness movement, and even before doing some google research on this, I had heard that they are quite accepting of a lot of claims about Jesus. There's a very interesting page here: http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/chapter27.html with claims like "Sometimes Sri Krsna descends Himself, and sometimes He sends His representative. The major religions of the world-Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Moslem-believe in some supreme authority or personality coming down from the kingdom of God. In the Christian religion, Jesus Christ claimed to be the son of God and to be coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim conditioned souls. As followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim to be true. So basically there is no difference of opinion. In details there may be differences due to differences in culture, climate and people, but the basic principle remains the same-that is, God or His representatives come to reclaim conditioned souls."

So possibly this add weight to the view that we shouldn't favour negative interpretations of the lyrics. Though, this doesn't say anything specific about the Virgin Birth and I realise that most Christians would probably reject the Krishna movement as incompatible with their beliefs.
nickpeat
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby nickpeat » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:40 am

Dear 2-J,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my message and for your explanation, I really do appreciate it.

You have hit the nail on the head when you said "But of course in that case, the song does deny the Virgin Birth so if that is a problem for you full stop (even if Crispian is sympathetic to Mary) then you still won't get on with the song".

As a Christian this is a fundamental belief and therefore the reason I posted my original message. As for the other stuff, the gossip etc., you are right, that talk has been around for years and that is exactly what it is, talk and gossip.

There are plenty of other songs on the album to listen to, the album is brilliant by the way isn't it? I hope KS do a full UK tour soon as I would love to watch them live again. I have seen them live five times in the past and each time they have been sensational, not a live band I have seen to touch them.

Thank you once again for your post,

God bless,

nickpeat
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2-J
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 2-J » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:21 am

Nick peat, thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings-

In summary I would say, in my opinion, it is an open question (honestly) whether the song denies the Virgin Birth... but I can understand if the possible ambiguity leaves you uncomfortable.
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Jagannath
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby Jagannath » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:41 pm

still, one of the best tracks on the album, imho ;)
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108 Battles
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 108 Battles » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:14 am

Jagannath wrote:still, one of the best tracks on the album, imho ;)

This, and no offense to anyone meant but I think some may be reading too much into it. :)
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 2-J » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:02 am

MARY in GALILEE, who is FILLED WITH CHILD in dubious circumstances. You don't have to work very hard to get the reference.
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108 Battles
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 108 Battles » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:38 pm

2-J wrote:MARY in GALILEE, who is FILLED WITH CHILD in dubious circumstances. You don't have to work very hard to get the reference.


True. But Crispian may have just meant it as a metaphor. Who knows.

At any rate, I'm just going to enjoy the song and not worry about what's running through his mind when he wrote it. It's one of the better ones off the album.
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2-J
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 2-J » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm

108 Battles wrote:True. But Crispian may have just meant it as a metaphor. Who knows.

At any rate, I'm just going to enjoy the song and not worry about what's running through his mind when he wrote it. It's one of the better ones off the album.


Yes you are right, the Galilee and spirit references could be metaphors, it could be about a girl / woman who got pregnant and she's being compared to the Virgin Mary. It does work on several levels. No interpretation I've considered so far has affected my enjoyment of the song, at any rate.
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108 Battles
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Re: Oh Mary

Postby 108 Battles » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:03 pm

2-J wrote:
108 Battles wrote:True. But Crispian may have just meant it as a metaphor. Who knows.

At any rate, I'm just going to enjoy the song and not worry about what's running through his mind when he wrote it. It's one of the better ones off the album.


Yes you are right, the Galilee and spirit references could be metaphors, it could be about a girl / woman who got pregnant and she's being compared to the Virgin Mary. It does work on several levels. No interpretation I've considered so far has affected my enjoyment of the song, at any rate.


Well that's the most important thing right there. :)

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